"Beyond the ball must be to the toe. That doesn't sound right."

Beyond the toe... beyond the entire foot. The pressure of the weight is still in the foot, but the location of the center of mass has moved beyond the foot.

You simply can't move your body more than the lenght of your foot while keeping it over the foot! It has to go beyond if it is to go anywhere.

"Your still not bending your knees to create an angle of 45 degrees are you."

Where do you get a crazy, unrelated idea like that? You pull this out ever two weeks or so, despite being corrected in your erroneous assumption each time.

YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU SINPLEY CANT ACCEPT THAT FACT THAT YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Yet every post yours proves it... to every one reading.

I keep seeing endless postings with no mention of the use of the knees. Without using the knee the step will be painfully short. The more the knees are bent the further you will go. Backwards Forward or Side Ways. One more thing. Our bodies stay over our feet when the weight is collected and in between at varying distances from then on untill the next collection point.
Don't you find it very hard to get in front of your foot which is moving. by the time you have caught up to your moving foot the other one is moving. Just watch a runner.
The only way you are going to be able to get in front of your front foot is with a very straight knee so that you can go over the top.This is why you have said your thigh is vertical. Bend your knee and your weight will centre over the ball of the foot.

" The only way you are going to be able to get in front of your front foot is with a very straight knee so that you can go over the top.This is why you have said your thigh is vertical. Bend your knee and your weight will centre over the ball of the foot."

WRONG.

In the situation I described where the thigh was vertical, the SHIN WAS NOT VERTICAL.

Which is to say, the knee was substantially bent.

The bent knee was in front of the foot.

The body was vertically aligned over the knee.

Thus the body was in front of the foot!

As the shin is not verticl so is the thigh not verticl. Try getting the feet together. Do as you suggest. That is a verticl thigh over an angled shin.
What has happend to those natural laws of movement you often write about. Do you anlize your own statements.
How can the bent knee be in front of the body. And the body verticlly aligned over the knee. Which means the knee is not in front of the body. Is it. That is more the position that a diver has just before they leave the diving platform and has no place in dancing. At that point they is no return.

"Try getting the feet together. Do as you suggest. That is a verticl thigh over an angled shin."

Yes, that's the way it works. This puts the bent the knee forwards of the foot, and the body over the knee, which is to say also projected forward of the foot - but while maintaining vertical alignment.

"How can the bent knee be in front of the body. And the body verticlly aligned over the knee."

I didn't say the knee was in front of the body, I said the knee, and the body, are in front of the foot.

"Which means the knee is not in front of the body. Is it."

Which is why I didn't say it was - try READING next time.

Now of course there are situations where the knee would be ahead of the body, but those are different points in different actions, with entirely different characteristics.

If my shin is angled and my thigh and body are verticle over my knee I am falling forward. I am absulutely sure that absolutely no one would walk through their local shopping centre like that. Stop trying to defend the indefensible. You'll be here foreverand a day.

Hi Quickstep
No, you won't be falling forward - just moving forward.
If we take the transition from step 1 to step 2 in the waltz natural turn. I'm driving with my standing (right) foot. My hips are forward under my body and my right shin is angled forward. My standing ball of foot is a little behind my centre of mass (i.e. my body) but it doesn't matter - i'm not falling forward, i'm driving forward and my left leg is just about to swing through for step 2.
I think Anonymous is about right on this.(though i don't agree on the "the weight is on the foot" thing, but i'm sure we both mean the same thing).
In fact, i'm trying to improve my dancing by improving this very action. Up till now, i've tended to stick my bum out a bit which leaves my hips and body a little behind (hey- that's a good pun!!) where they should be and is impeding my body flight.
I don't think of "body in front of foot", i think of "let's get this body driving forward with good shape"
I haven't tried this dance movement in a shopping centre because i'm afraid all the ladies will mob me to dance with them!!

"Hi Quickstep
No, you won't be falling forward - just moving forward.
If we take the transition from step 1 to step 2 in the waltz natural turn. I'm driving with my standing (right) foot. My hips are forward under my body and my right shin is angled forward. My standing ball of foot is a little behind my centre of mass (i.e. my body) but it doesn't matter - i'm not falling forward, i'm driving forward and my left leg is just about to swing through for step 2."

Actually, once your weight is past your center of floor pressure you are falling forward, but because you are driving forward faster than you are faling forward, you are moving in control and the result is wonderful.

That's basically how two legged creatures normally move - we are falling slightly for part of each step, but our drive in that direction overwhelms the fall. Only if we neglect to drive will we actually fall over.

"I think Anonymous is about right on this.(though i don't agree on the "the weight is on the foot" thing, but i'm sure we both mean the same thing).
In fact, i'm trying to improve my dancing by improving this very action. Up till now, i've tended to stick my bum out a bit which leaves my hips and body a little behind (hey- that's a good pun!!) where they should be and is impeding my body flight."

That leaving the hip back is precisely the problem that results, so it's great that you've realized this and are working to move beyond it. Generally the reason for leaving the hip back is to try to keep the body weight in balance over the foot in order to control the movement. But it just won't work with a partner. To dance in control with a partner, you have to aim the movement with care and then follow through on it with a committed, unhesistant drive - you can't get a way with a bad aim and then trying to make things work by "riding the brakes" which is to say leaving your hip weight behind.

If our foot is skimming the floor we are not in free fall. Free fall is how we walk, we lift the foot from the floor. In dancing we do not. Therefore we are in contact with the floor and are not falling. Loose contact with the floor and your timing will suffer. The speed of your feet will increase and you will lose time. Words from a former World finalist and Blackpool judge just recently on TV.

"If our foot is skimming the floor we are not in free fall. Free fall is how we walk, we lift the foot from the floor. In dancing we do not."

Once again you miss the ELEMENTARY FACT that the MOVING FOOT CANNOT SUPPORT YOU.

Regardless if it is on the floor, or tucked behind your ear, the moving leg is NOT A SUPPORTING FOOT!

"Loose contact with the floor and your timing will suffer. The speed of your feet will increase and you will lose time. Words from a former World finalist and Blackpool judge just recently on TV."

I know why he said that, but he is WRONG. Some people rely on drag of the moving leg against the floor to keep it from moving too fast, but the problem is that they are MOVING THEIR BODY IN THE WRONG WAY. If they would only move their body correctly, their moving leg would not try to move to fast, and thus they wouldn't have to rely on braking from the floor to slow it down.

They'd probably still choose to keep the foot on the floor (after all, why lift it?) But they would not RELY on braking action.